'1CC lists are bad' discussion split from 'Who has the most CAVE clears?' thread

[PROMETHEUS]

Personally I never cared at all for 1CC lists or stuff like that, 1CC-ing a thousand games of the same difficulty in the same genre isn't any more difficult than clearing only one of them. It only means you did a memorizing effort on a lot of different games.

I actually totally avoid starting to play a new game. If I think I want to start a new one, I weigh the pros and cons and make sure I feel really done with the one I used to play. Then I stick to it for ages.

[EOJ]

1CC-ing a thousand games of the same difficulty in the same genre isn't any more difficult than clearing only one of them.

Of course it is, for the simple fact that the games are of varying difficulties. And if clearing all of them is as hard as clearing one of them, then everyone would have the same number of clears!  Or at least a clear for every game they've played.

[PROMETHEUS]

Yeah, if they are of varying difficulty, then it's the same as having cleared only the hardest one. For example, the western player I admire the most is MisterMonkeyMan. Not for his number of clears, not for his DFK or Galuda score, but solely considering his amazing Ketsui play which is his biggest achievement. In the same way, I am impressed by SWY because of his Futari Ultra play. The fact that he also did a big score at DDP or Ikaruga doesn't surprise or impress me after I have seen that one, because I see it as the hardest to reach.

[EOJ]

Yeah, if they are of varying difficulty, then it's the same as having cleared only the hardest one.

How do you measure 'hardest'? Yes there are some clear divisions (Futari Ultra is harder than Futari Maniac), but as we can see from our 'rank CAVE difficulties' thread, people vary widely on what they consider hard.

Each game is a separate experience and clearing each one is a separate achievement. This thread isn't called "who can beat the hardest game and thus has the ability to beat all easier games", after all.

[PROMETHEUS]

It is sometimes difficult to measure but 2-ALLing Ketsui is definitely much, much, much harder than clearing Galuda or Futari Maniac, for example. But yeah, I do think someone who can beat the hardest game thus has the ability to beat all the easier ones, if they use similar skills (for example Ikaruga uses more methodical skills whereas Caves require more danmaku skills and that's different).

[EOJ]

Alright. But again, that is not relevant to this thread. The 'potential' to beat a game is irrelevant for this thread. We are looking at actual accomplishments here.

[jpj]

can't say i really cared about 1CC stuff either.  a 1-ALL on doj with 100+ mill wouldn't impress me as much as a 600+ mill score where the player died on the 1-5 boss    especially with looping games, if your objective is just to make a 1-ALL, then you can use bombs all the time (which will lose you potential scoring)    i think 1CC topics are bad because they perpetuate that style of play  

[EOJ]

I split this from the main thread, in case you guys want to keep discussing aspects of it here.

[PROMETHEUS]

can't say i really cared about 1CC stuff either.  a 1-ALL on doj with 100+ mill wouldn't impress me as much as a 600+ mill score where the player died on the 1-5 boss    especially with looping games, if your objective is just to make a 1-ALL, then you can use bombs all the time (which will lose you potential scoring)    i think 1CC topics are bad because they perpetuate that style of play  

Yes, I very much agree with all of that.

[Third_strike]

"Who ALL one game can ALL all games"
Now I could remember my begin in shmups.
Cool!   

[Ruldra]

I'd rather have a huge list of game clears than an impressive score in one or two shmups. For me it's not about beating difficult games, it's about experiencing them. Every shmup plays differently, you come across different scoring systems, different attack patterns, levels, enemies, bosses...every game is an unique experience. Considering the sheer number of them out there, I feel I'd be missing a lot if I just stick to one game for years (I have a deep respect for people who can do that though, as they are the ones who pull off the most impressive scores).

[PROMETHEUS]

I'd rather have a huge list of game clears than an impressive score in one or two shmups. For me it's not about beating difficult games, it's about experiencing them. Every shmup plays differently, you come across different scoring systems, different attack patterns, levels, enemies, bosses...every game is an unique experience. Considering the sheer number of them out there, I feel I'd be missing a lot if I just stick to one game for years (I have a deep respect for people who can do that though, as they are the ones who end up pulling off the most impressive scores).

Yeah that makes sense. That's enjoying STGs as art and culture - I enjoy games like Half Life 2, GTA IV or Devil May Cry that way myself. Not STGs though, dunno why.

[EOJ]

I'd rather have a huge list of game clears than an impressive score in one or two shmups.

Why not strive for both? I like clears, they're satisfying in and of themselves, but I try and get a very good score + clear when I play a game seriously. I'm definitely happier with a new personal best high score without a clear than a lower scoring clear, of course, but when I pull both together, I think that is the most satisfying experience these games can offer.

I know many people don't care much for score, and are satisfied when they just get the 1CC. Different strokes for different folks.

[jpj]

imagine if all the western ikaruga players had stopped playing as soon as they got the clear ..     

and yeah, just do whatever is fun for you    personally, i'm not even sure if fun is even the right word.  i think the enjoyment i get out of it is from accomplishing something, or breaking through a barrier.  in music and literature, i think there's a proper term for it - when you have rising tension climaxing, and then juxtaposed with serenity.  i'm not wording this very well, but i think the joy is proportionate to how much time (read: pain/anger/frustration) you've invested into learning it.  if i had a single WR, i'd be more proud of that than a hundred mid-level 1CCs.  i'm sure i could've bombed my way through stages 4 and 5 on progear, and got a 1-ALL before i sold it, but i think it would've been an empty victory.  but that's just my thoughts  so i can understand why some people play the same games deeply and intently.  my fav western player is benjamin bouloch.  3000 hours on radiant silvergun and counting   

[Third_strike]

3000 hours on radiant silvergun and counting   

With this time I would can get the Homura WR .

Cool!

[RAR]

i'm sure i could've bombed my way through stages 4 and 5 on progear, and got a 1-ALL before i sold it....

You sold your Progear board? Why??

[jpj]

made redundant a couple of weeks ago, and need the money.  sold my battle garegga board as well   

[PROMETHEUS]

I'm definitely happier with a new personal best high score without a clear than a lower scoring clear, of course, but when I pull both together, I think that is the most satisfying experience these games can offer.

I think the times when I get the most satisfaction is when that happens too, but it's very rare, and the rest of the time I really enjoy just using any savestate at a hard pattern or hard place and doing it well while dancing to any music that I'm listening to at the same time :p That's when I have the most fun with those games.

[markedkiller78]

I'd rather have a huge list of game clears than an impressive score in one or two shmups. For me it's not about beating difficult games, it's about experiencing them. Every shmup plays differently, you come across different scoring systems, different attack patterns, levels, enemies, bosses...every game is an unique experience. Considering the sheer number of them out there, I feel I'd be missing a lot if I just stick to one game for years (I have a deep respect for people who can do that though, as they are the ones who pull off the most impressive scores).

What he said. I'm not going to put in 100+ hours to get close to a Western WR, but if I can get the 1cc ,then I know I've invested enough time into the game to experience 95% of it.

The extra 5% is not worth another 100 hours to me. I could use that on a new game. Time is finite, sod spending it all striving for a No Miss / No bomb run through a game.

It's not for everyone & it's netither right or wrong, but as always this is what suits me & my style of play.

I've never strived for perfection or to be number one at anything. being in the upper echelon of life is all I need I aim to beat someone / something & never aim to high or low. That way I can get what I want & move on.

[GaijinPunch]

The clear was obviously put there for a reason...  it is also one benchmark (the other score) of skill.  And as for difficulty... uh... some things are harder for some people than others.  I actually had a rough time getting used to MMP's later levels, b/c I'm not familiar w/ the style.  It's all fine and dandy if you want to 2-ALL a really fucking hard game.  I don't have the dexterity to stay with one game for that long.  I believe it was discussed at one of the STGT's that the high scoring players were putting in 30+ hours on the game that week.  I simply don't have that time, and never will.  I'd rather enjoy the games I play, and for me, that generally entails his the clear on a credit.

[Plasmo]

The clear was obviously put there for a reason...  it is also one benchmark (the other score) of skill.

I have yet to play a Cave game that takes skill to just get the Clear on, excluding 2-ALL's and Mushi Ultra's of course. A 1cc is barely a start. After the 1cc I usually feel I've experienced about 20% of the game, the other 80% are a whole new experience when you start to learn the scoring mechanics imo.

Shooting my way through DOJ's first loop can't be compared to the feeling when you're chaining all the stages. The game gets at least twice as good this way.

[PROMETHEUS]

but if I can get the 1cc ,then I know I've invested enough time into the game to experience 95% of it.

The extra 5% is not worth another 100 hours to me.

It doesn't make sense to say you've experienced 95% of a game if you have just beaten it, unless you mean experienced as enjoyed like you'd enjoy a movie. In terms of skill, it's more like Plasmo said :

After the 1cc I usually feel I've experienced about 20% of the game, the other 80% are a whole new experience when you start to learn the scoring mechanics imo.

Indeed most Caves don't take much skill to just 1CC, even if you're not very good you can get it done by memorizing the game well enough. If you have better skills, you'll manage a 1CC sooner, that is to say without memorizing as much. However some games will still require serious skills to 1CC even you have perfectly memorized the whole game, like Ultra or some 2-ALLs...

[markedkiller78]

I see my self as being in the slightly above average bracket with shmups. To say that it requires no skill to 1cc a game may be true for you as an individual, but in comparission to all the people who play shmups this surely cannot be true?

If it is, then I guess i'm in the Beginer stage still.

My % could be way off, but I'm basing this on, Seeing all the levels, knowing the placement of all enemies, understanding the intermediate mechanics for scoring & clearing the game.

I personally don't thnink that 80% of the game is made up of maximizing score & squeezing everything out of the game. Exploiting bugs, knowing which shot results in max points etc all seem to be the intricate details of the game, for me this is a small part of it, hence the 5%.

If you look at professinal sportsmen you'll know that 0.0001% or so (total guess) actually make it to the top level. Does that mean the other 99.9999% of people playing the game are only experiencing 20% of it?

The upper 0.1% or so may get more & know more about a game than the rest, but do you honestly think that the details are the majority of a game? I'll bet the developers know less about the game than the WR score holders.

I guess it's all open to interpritation.

[PROMETHEUS]

obviously we don't mean that only getting a WR rewards 80% and 0% for all the rest, it's more like if you can get a pretty good score, you're 50% into the game, then 85% if you can get a really good score, then 100% for WR...
Something like that. Of course it's only an image, enjoyment of a game's depth isn't really quantifiable.

[adverse]

I dunno, I think the only CAVE games that I know to be easily 1CCable without getting too deep into the game are Mushi Futari Black Label and Deathsmiles.   Playing through either intelligently with ample use of bombs will eventually get you the clear.

DOJ took me awhile and by the end I knew most enemy placements in the game.  Still, it's not like I can chain stage 4 and 5 because I know where the enemies are going to be necessarily. 

My personal playing philosophy is generally to aim for a respectable score with the 1CC, and once I get that, move on to another game.  Certain games that I've really fallen in love with like DOJ and Futari I'm sure I'll return to, but there's a whole slew of CAVE games (Guwange, Ketsui, Espgaludas, DDP DFK) that I've hardly touched and it's hard to justify ignoring those to see the 'other 80%' of a game I'm nonetheless pretty familiar with.

[EOJ]

I have yet to play a Cave game that takes skill to just get the Clear on, excluding 2-ALL's and Mushi Ultra's of course.

You've played Pink Sweets. Where's your 1CC if it "doesn't take skill"? 

[jpj]

i'm sure if plasmo wanted to go for a low-score/low rank clear on PS he could do it 

i was searching shmups for oxtsu's post about ranking cave clears and came across this old thread..
http://shmups.system11.org/viewtopic.php?t=4672&highlight=poll



personally, i still think there's some debate as to whether a 1-ALL (which isn't displayed in-game as an ALL) actually constitutes a 1CC or not.  certainly arcadia don't do separate tables for 1 loop play of DOJ, for example  (i would actually find it interesting though!  )

[EOJ]

i'm sure if plasmo wanted to go for a low-score/low rank clear on PS he could do it 

Coulda, woulda, shoulda. It still takes skill, and that's my point.

[astrodan88]

I have yet to play a Cave game that takes skill to just get the Clear on,

Honestly I'm surprised to see all the disdain for the 1CC.
As was already said, we all have different ways of enjoying these games (and enjoying yourself is the main thing right?  ), but a 1CC is definitely a benchmark of skill (and a laudable one imo).

[Plasmo]

You've played Pink Sweets. Where's your 1CC if it "doesn't take skill"?  Huh?

Looks like I forgot one for the exceptions list. (it's not the typical Cave game anyway).

My point was just that a 1cc doesn't take too much skill. Of course it depends on the person playing, but I'm sure that with some dedication everyone could get every Cave Clear (no 2-all's, no Ultra's, no Raizing's) within 2-3 months maximum. Whereas playing for score opens whole new levels and I don't think everyone could achieve a 1bill DOJ score even if he has 1 year.